[mtbgreg1 offline]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/06/ ... ath_224889

The family of a cyclist (road biker) who died during a road bike descent is suing Strava. According to the article, the rider had recently lost his KOM status on a descent and was trying to regain it. He grabbed the brakes to avoid a car, lost control, crashed, and died... and now they're suing strava.

Check out this quotation:

The family takes issue with this lack of accountability. “They assume no responsibility,” Kang said. “They don’t put cones out. They don’t have anybody monitor and see whether a course, or a specific segment, is dangerous.”

Firstly, someone doesn't understand how Strava works. Monitor the course? Put cones out? Are you fricking kidding me?

Secondly, grow up and take some responsibility! I've written before about the spreading epidemic of blame shifting... this is just more evidence of why our country is circling the drain.

While Strava seems to be growing quickly, and while this lawsuit seems like it won't go anywhere, I hope they don't shut down from the costs of fighting stupid suits like this. I imagine they don't make a ton of money, and fighting in court, even if you're right, can be costly.

What's your take?

[maddslacker offline]

See! This is the kind of thing I was telling you and Trek7k about when we were out at Buff Creek!

[GregFin offline]

just aweful. people will sue anybody they can these days. its disgusting. I feel sorry for the families loss...but seriously....

he was going faster than a posted speed limit. regardless of who told or encouraged him to do so, he is at fault. end of story.

on the other side, this person died doing something they love. we should all be so lucky.

[CallmeAL offline]

In brief: total bogus

Shiftin' the blame = completely lame

[Jared13 offline]

The article says they're suing for "negligence and that the website encouraged him to speed."
Are they seeking monetary compensation or for Strava to be shutdown/changed because they feel it's dangerous?

I don't think Strava is responsible for the death. If they are, so is the bike manufacture for making the bike, the car manufacture for making the car, the brake and tire manufacture for making the brakes/tires and the city/county/state for making the road. They all "contributed" to the accident, but the death was the biker's fault.

[bonkedagain offline]

This discussion has been going on for some time now in another mtb website. Basically, the argument condensed down to "Is Strava KOM inadvertently encouraging bikers to ride recklessly when they wouldn't otherwise?" When you think about it, it does provide a motivator for the more competitive types to take chances that they wouldn't otherwise take.

Does that mean that this family has grounds to sue? Of course not. But you always have to be careful about encouraging bad behavior, even if it is in a roundabout way. Remember why Dominoes quit promising delivery in 30 minutes or less? Yeah, to quit indirectly encouraging their drivers to break the speed limit.

[mtbgreg1 offline]

Trying to get KOM is only reckless if you are riding outside of your ability level or endangering those around you. In this case it seems he was doing both. Still, it seems likely that in many cases you can pursue a KOM safely. If you can't do it safely you should be man enough to admit it and not risk your life for a stupid website.

Just my two cents.

The whole situation just seems really sad all around.

[CallmeAL offline]

This to anybody who believes that Strava "encouraged" unsafe behaviour and contributed to the death:

Then isn't building "racing" bikes then an encouragement to be unsafe? That line of thought just doesn't hold up for me. Can't really blame Strava unless if you believe that you can blame a whole lot of other entities. That's all a blame game. In the end, everybody loses when it's a blame game.

Unfortunate. Sad. But these things happen.

[bonkedagain offline]

Then isn't building "racing" bikes then an encouragement to be unsafe?

Sometimes, but for most people it isn't. Building a race bike in anticipation of an official race on a closed course is completely safe. Being an idiot and racing the bike in a crowded city park is unsafe.

As with any activity that has the potential to harm yourself or others, the ability to control your impulses is what makes the difference between safe and unsafe behavior. Doesn't matter if it is a race bike, a race car, a bottle of scotch, or a loaded gun. With the proper respect any of those things can be enjoyed without harm. It's the people who ignore the risks that cause trouble.

There are always testosterone driven boneheads who will strive for any kind of recognition, even in a silly web forum. Some people believe Strava is feeding those boneheads, and I think there is some truth to that argument -- not a lot, but some.

What Strava has done is take any recognized bike route and turn it into a time-trial course that is available at any time. The majority of people who are into Strava will see what they can do to match the fastest times and then divert their attention to more meaningful endeavors. Unfortunately, there are a few that will decide they they must be KOM and will risk their lives (and the lives of others) to obtain KOM. Is that Strava's fault? No, I don't think so, but I think you have to answer the question Would this be happening if there was no Strava KOM? Probably not. Should Strava do something about it? I haven't decided.

[CallmeAL offline]

^^ You make a reasonable point that the question could be called.

Still, I say it's a slippery slope. Near me there's a road that has a wicked S bend on it. When I'm in a sporty car, I would love to drive that thing like a racecar driver. But I don't for consideration of the consequences.

But sometimes people do. And sometimes people die. Maybe not on this particular stretch of road, but on some. It ALWAYS comes back to the person at the wheel (bike or car or whatever). Operate safely. Consider the safety of others and yourself. Personal responsibility vs. blaming this road, that car, or some computer program/website for encouraging one's questionable behavior. That's the side of the coin I'm on. Others, I suppose, can and will differ...

And, that said, I will admit that it's probably a good idea to look at how to prevent tragedies... especially when one happens and brings something to light. But I believe that that is subtly different than just looking for who to sue...

[stumpyfsr offline]

As others, I'm sorry for familie's loss. But does it Strava's fault? No.
Strava is just a tool to collect GPS-data and share between users. Many modern bike GPS units has a "Phantom Rider Mode", so bikers can compete against themselves. This future creates same effect as Strava - riders push their limits further to become faster. If family wanna shift a blame why they didn't start with GPS manufacturer, who's unit was collecting a ride data? Answer is clear: there is a category of people who must be first. And they will do anything to be first. It's just everyone's responsibility to know their own limits and accept Second place.

[Fitch offline]

The term "frivolous" comes to mind.

It all started with that idiot and the hot cup of McDonald's coffee... sigh...

[bonkedagain offline]

It all started with that idiot and the hot cup of McDonald's coffee...

People like to use that example as a posterchild of tort reform, but if you take a closer look at the facts in that case you will find, again, that there is some grey area. In that situation, McD's was selling coffee at 180-190 degrees -- blazing hot! Way too hot to actually drink without taking careful sips and way hotter than necessary to cause severe burns in seconds. Did she deserve the huge settlement she ultimately recieved in the end? Probably not. Was it totally her fault that she spent days in the hospital and had to get skin grafts to repair the damage? I don't think so.

[Jared13 offline]

This discussion has been going on for some time now in another mtb website. Basically, the argument condensed down to "Is Strava KOM inadvertently encouraging bikers to ride recklessly when they wouldn't otherwise?" When you think about it, it does provide a motivator for the more competitive types to take chances that they wouldn't otherwise take.

Does that mean that this family has grounds to sue? Of course not. But you always have to be careful about encouraging bad behavior, even if it is in a roundabout way. Remember why Dominoes quit promising delivery in 30 minutes or less? Yeah, to quit indirectly encouraging their drivers to break the speed limit.

I would agree with both paragraphs.

Competition provides motivation for people to push themselves harder than they would normally. Most people will still ride within their limits but will travel a bit deeper into the "pain cave." Unfortunately, not all people will ride within their limits.

Strava (and other sites like it) provide that motivation 24/7.

Did Strava encourage Mr. Flint to push himself? Yes.
Did this pushing himself lead to his death? Yes.
Is Strava responsible for his death? Not at all.

[Jampa56 offline]

As I said in another site: Strava encouraged me to jump off a cliff and I did.